Cutting the cord of communication
Are we born with the natural ability to love?
I'm not so sure. For me, I had to learn how to love my children... but that was easy, because they grew inside me. As I learned each stage of development, I grew a deeper appreciation for what was happening to my own body, and I was better able to prepare myself for each baby entering my life. I also got a better perspective of what my own natural mother endured for the sake of having me. I was humbled by the birthing experience, as I think most women are.
I think it's the birthing room that separated me most from my adoptive mother.
I needed that time to be alone with my own thoughts about me, my own loss as an adoptee (my own mother and my own baby from my own body) but she, my adoptive mother, invited herself in the labor and delivery room because as the role of Maternal Grandmother, she had that "right to attend. No, she didn't, she just assumed she did, as usual, and that really pissed me off.
My entire life, her role as my mom was always assumed as acceptable.
In my mind, it wasn't.
In my mind, I KNEW I had a mommy, elsewhere, but I was NEVER allowed to discuss it openly.
That hurts.
It hurts to know something, but not discuss it freely because you know it will upset people... especially your parents.
What is a child to do, if open communication is not welcomed?
We learn to keep silent.
For some, silence becomes a deadly curse.
I don't recall making too many loud yelling noises during labor. I think I was more of a quiet moaner and groaner. I usually endure pain that way. I remember Lamaze did nothing for me. Breathing that he-he-ha-ha who-who stuff and counting was too confusing for me. Focusing was too much. I remember just visualizing my own bones separating, with each contraction. I remember closing my eyes and visualizing what was taking place, inside... and imagining what was actually taking place at the time of each painful contraction, and concentrating on the pain. Giving reason and purpose to each movement gave meaning and tolerance, and for me, that helped. I got through it, and that was that.
I was proud of my ability to get through the labor process naturally... and I did it because my natural mother did it (gave birth) for me.
I hated that she wasn't there to watch me, and it bothered me to pieces my adoptive mother was, instead -- but I kept that to myself.
IF my daughters choose to have children of their own, I will let them have control over their own labor and delivery experience. Knowing them, they will want me there with them, because I'm excellent in crisis situations... but that's all up to them. The doctor cut the cord, they have been released from my control, and I accept their need to make their own decisions about their own lives.
After all, a parent's job is to guide, not control, isn't it?
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We are born with the ability
We are born with the ability to love. In fact the new born mind can process emotion even in its pre cognitive state. Remember the brain starts working before its finished developing. At birth the limbic is functioning. Also keep in mind the highly "plastic" nature of the infant mind. It wil hard wire experiences into permanent pathways(synapses) that will become pre cognitive memories. The infant mind process emotion, uses emotion to explore, carry on a dialogue with the mother, and learn to stabilise its own emotions(cope). Lack of stimulation, absence of the first mother, as in adoption or daycare, results in inadequate stimulation or poor stimulation. What you get is an infant with a mal developed limbic system that can be observed on active PET scans. This will manifest as autisitc like behaviors, aggression, learning disabilities, and a labile mood in childhood. So yes we are born with a functioning amygdala but life can damage it and distore its development resulting in the emotions and thoughts adult adoptees have. This is the brain center of the primal wound.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Monkey see, monkey do
We are born with an ability to learn, and follow by example.
Love is an emotion.
It's subjective, so how can you tell if it's felt, sincerely... Bob? Do you have some magical power that can read a person's mind, heart and soul? Do you wish that you HAD that power?
Love is an affect
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
We are born to learn, and follow by example.
Love is an emotion.
It's subjective, so how can you tell if it's felt, sincerely... Bob? Do you have some magical power that can read a person's mind, heart and soul? Do you wish that you HAD that power?
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There is no power needed. In oder to love we must risk being hurt. For us, the separated, love triggers the primal defense caused by the primal wound. The affective memory of separation is so powerful that we go from love to fear. Love triggers fear of abandonment, and violation of trust. Cognitively we know that this isnt true but affectively we feel it is. This disconnection between what we feel and what we know is the center of adoption resolution. The amygdala rules the neo cortex. When others feel happy we feel threatened. There is no answer other than take the risk love and be hurt then love again. "Its better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." Did I say that or did some other guy say it first?
Man, woman, child
The circle of life revolves around trust, so love needs to develop slowly.
Whether a man says words is academic, actions speak louder than words, you silly man!
A mother's actions, and her ability to tend to her child's needs (IE feed, nurture <breastfeed>) after birth are natural events, as created by God, correct?
"What God has created, let no man put asunder"
Who wrote THAT, big-guy?
Love trust & hope
The circle of life revolves around trust, so love needs to develop slowly.
Whether a man says words is academic, actions speak louder than words, you silly man!
A mother's actions, and her ability to tend to her child's needs (IE feed, nurture <breastfeed>) after birth are natural events, as created by God, correct?
"What God has created, let no man put asunder"
Who wrote THAT, big-guy?
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Gore Vidal? Love develops very quickly as does, trust, hope, and the other basic affects. The reason for this is the nature of the human brain. In the begining, the brain is plastic. It learns instantly from experience. The more intense the emotion that is created by the experience, the more intensely the the brain will record it and wire cells together to support it. Infants in the first year of life are in a critical period of development. What happens at that time is more influential than what happens at te age of 5. Consider the ultimate emotional experience for an oinfant, the loss of its mother. The brain is going to make a memory and wire mistrust into its basic make up. Since this feeling will be supported by the emotional brain and the limbic system, the rational brain (neo cortex) doesnt communicate with it effectively. So as an adult we can discuss your feelings of mistrust but the feelings wont go away. Thats why talk therapy and behaviorial therapy doesnt work for us. The emotional brain has to be reached and rewired. Then the adopteee must build a bridge connecting what is felt and what is understood. That is the primary challenge for us. That bridge is the cure for the primal wound. More about that later. Right now Im watching Germany play Brazil in the world cup. Then I have an opera, and then I have... its good to be in such demand. Ill squeeze you in dont worry.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Slow down, cowboy!
What planet do YOU live on that the head is made of plastic, and a year or five is passed quickly?
Love develops very quickly as does, trust, hope, and the other basic affects. The reason for this is the nature of the human brian. In the begining, the brain is plastic. It learns instantly from experience. The more intense the emotion that is created by the experience, the more intensely the the brain will record it and wire cells together to support it. Infants in the first year of life are in a critical period of development. What happens at that time is more influential than what happens at te age of 5
Life (for the human) develops over 40 weeks... within the body of one woman. Love has nothing to do with that. It's nature, doing it's THING.
You enjoy your world-cup and opera... men like you scare me.
Are you sure your mother didn't drop you on your head when you were little?
Love cont.
Until there is a limbic system there is no capacity for love. As you might remember there are many types of love. No one knows at what point in fetsal development a rudimentary affect form such as love starts. Likely its at the time of birth and is refined in the days and weeks thereafter during the critical time of plasticity. Thats the time when it can be distorted by an extreme emotional experience (separation), or neglect in the abscence of optimum limbic stimulation. Even futher complicated by the presence of a different mother (primary caregiver) who is not recognised by the infant. Dispair increases until harmony is gained. We are in a post adoption context now. Consider an adopted mother cant attach and becomes anxious transferring that affect to the infant. Now we have a cascade effect as they fall away from each other emotionally. Where does she go for help? Does she even have any idea whats going on? Probably not because the adoption process dosent teach what the child really needs.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Whoa, whoa, whoa....
How did we go from a woman having a baby to an adoption process?
Did I miss something?
I though we were talking about Love, and can it be taught... or is it naturally felt within us.
I believe Love is a trust issue, and it has to be learned and earned, over time.
Do you disagree?
Yes or no
How did we go from a woman
How did we go from a woman having a baby to an adoption process?
Did I miss something?
I though we were talking about Love, and can it be taught... or is it naturally felt within us.
I believe Love is a trust issue, and it has to be learned and earned, over time.
Do you disagree?
Yes or no
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Love is in the context of adoption on an adoption related blog right? Love isnt taught its experienced, the differentiation made between the cognitive and affective. Love comes from the limbic system. Trust is not a component of love thats a relationship issue. One can be inlove and not be in a relationship. Trust can be violated and love will still be at work. These are searate and not always parts of a hole. One can love and never trust. Love is not a trust isue but they are related. Trust can be a love isue. They exist independently and together. Catagorical thinking isnt effective here.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Different planets
Hold y'er horses warriors of the explanation of love.
While each of you have something valuable to say, it looks as if there are two threads evolving longside one another. As I read Kerry's post I felt it had to do with the process of learning to love when no love was given or received in childhood. She writes about how becoming a mother made her learn how to love. Robert explains how the infant's brain develops and what the effect of separation is on it. No wondering the two of you are tossing over one another. Can we please have one conversation.
Conditions
It's the same conversation, based on different conditions.... no more, no less.
Male-female perspective?
I don't know for sure, as much as I can guess who feels more abandoned than the other.
Speaking as a female, with a children, that topic (trust/love v. abandonment) can very well be a horse of a different color... one that few men can discuss freely, and answer simply with a yes/no answer like I asked of Bob.
Love/Trust MUST be earned for a woman, as it grows.... just like that baby she bears inside her belly.
Surely you boys must know that... didn't your Mom's teach you that life-lesson... or were your dad's responsible for that "talk"?
While each of you have
While each of you have something valuable to say, it looks as if there are two threads evolving longside one another. As I read Kerry's post I felt it had to do with the process of learning to love when no love was given or received in childhood. She writes about how becoming a mother made her learn how to love. Robert explains how the infant's brain develops and what the effect of separation is on it. No wondering the two of you are tossing over one another. Can we please have one conversation.
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It is the same conversation. If you didnt learn to love as an infant you cant learn it as an adult. If we assume that an infant isnt loved then it wont develop the brain systems to love as an adult. Thats an oversimplification but its true. There are critical periods in human development that cannot be recaptured. Isnt loved is somewhat vague. lets assume an infant is simply neglected by a distant mother who has minimal or no interaction with the baby. That babys brain will not develop normally and it will not have the anbility to love trust or attach. When that happens one cannot go back and learn when the critical period is past. The brain is no longer plastic and the dammage cannot be replaced. One cannot learn to love if the brain synapses that support love dont exist. Therefore if one can learn to love at a later time in life there must have been some kind of primary caregiver interacting positively at some critical time. Adoption impacts the ability to trust and love because in most cases separation ocurrs in the first critical period of development. The question is what was the quality of the infant/mother relationship before the separation? How was the new mother able to attach if at all? What effect did the trauma of separation have on the infant? What if the new family is abusive and we layer that trauma on top of the separation trauma? The question in human development today is expressed in terms of nature plus nuture not VS. But.... if the stimmulation inst there in the early stages then you cant go back and do it over. Its lost forever. The ability to love is based on how much and how "good" the interaction is with the first mother and then the primary caregiver. Its interesting to note that today we have an explosion of autistic like traits in children and its likely being caused by placement in day care at too early an age. We are growing a generation of limbic compromised people who will be dependent on seratonin reuptake inhibitors, mood stabilisers, and street drugs because their ful time working mothers dumped them in daycare and then parked them in front of baby einstein at night because they were too tired to spend quality time after an 8 hour day on the job.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Bob, stop the circles of confusion!
I keep asking you direct questions, but you fail to answer them... instead you choose to quote other people's work and texts. How come? Are you afraid to voice your own opinion on adoption?
Do you HAVE your own opinion on adoption?
I have an opinion on everything
I am direct and very comlete in my answers. A discussion doesnt mean I answer the way you want, it means I answer the way I want to. Now youre asking me my opinion on adoption. What part of adoption, what context within adoption. Adoption is a solution to a problem. Thats the best I can answer in the way you asked the question. Want more specifics then be more specific. Comprende muchacha?
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
evade and avoid
I am not your muchacha, compadre... I asked you a direct question, a day ago. Now, I believe you are much older than me, (or maybe it's the gray hair that has me fooled, who knows!) so let me refresh you memory:
I believe Love is a trust issue, and it has to be learned and earned, over time. [Without trust, one cannot love]
Do you disagree?
Yes or no
Pardone senora
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
Trust is a component of attachment not love. You have attachment and love confused. There can be love without trust look at all the bad relationships with people who will tell you they are in love or love each other but dont trust each other. They are in love but they are in an insecure attachment. Lets be clear this isnt a dating blog, or a marriage blog this is an adoption blog. Therefore we discuss love trust and attachment in the context of adoption. Are you still with me muchacha? In adoption we are talking about mother love or primary caregiver love and attachment. An attachment is crucial for normal development. Trust is crucial for a secure attachment. Love is only one affect in a secure or insecure attachment. When that attachment is broken the love remains but the trust is gone. Love then manifests as grief. Trust becomes miss trust. In summery trust is an attachment issue. Love doesnt need trust. One can be in a bad love relationship that has no trust but its still love. Some hate too and passion. Theres nothing like angry passion. Babies ned a secure attachment so they can become individuals. Interesting paradox isnt it? We need to be attached so we can be autonomous. From that secure attachment the individual springs forth. Thats the process of individuation but thats another topic. Fashtaste? My shana maidle.
Sorry, still not understanding...
See, BOB, My blog was written as a NATURAL MOM... one who has given birth, to my own babies.
Had you read the writing, as written, you would have gleaned that information, and not gone off about whatever you have discussed with yourself in whatever verbage you have.
I am very attached to my babies, as I should be, because I birthed them, and kept them. They trust me and love me, as I do them, because it's a mutual give and take relationship. I give, they take, and we respect the natural growth that becomes of it. Plain and simple.
Are we done?... because I'm really bored of you trying to impress me.
We are different
No need to be defensive or ad hominum. A mutual give and take relationship is called dependence and it is not love or attachment. Dependence is a means to an end while attachment is the end in itself. How your children love you and attach to you is something you will see as they age. Its an issue for adoptees because we are compromised in the love trust and attachment domain. What effects you affects your children. Whats imnportant to know is that attachment and love dont come from providing and careing for basic needs like food shelter and clothing. Adoptees and birth mothers express and accept love differentlly from the non triad members. There must be within all people an affective-cognitive consistancy(Zimbardo & Leippe,1991). When that doesnt happen people are not emotionally stable. Adoption destroys that consistancy and divides what we know from what we feel. Further it is very difficult for children to apply their newly aquired language skills to affective memories caused by trauma like adoption separation. Adoptees cant depend on nature to support their love relationships because the nature of adoptees is mistrust.
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
what's bob's problem? (women issues, you think?)
How can any man take a birthing-blog and turn it into an adoption story about himself, anyway?
I think he needs to find his own path back to his own life.
Hey, Admin, got a picture of bobbing for apples?
Like this?
Or should I have gone for the raunchier versions?
Oh, come now!
We're grown-ups, with grown-up tastes.
Can't you find one that comes in an old wine-barrel?
Siamese twins
Nah, but I did find two guys losing their heads over this game.
do you have a thought?
Robert Allan Hafetz
Not Remembered Never Forgotten
PathwaysinAdoptions.com
I love the personal stuff it shows you when youre on target. I welcome opposition only it should be expressed in the form of an idea. If you have a thought or idea thats beyond whats his problem then put it on the table and be part of a rationl discussion. If you cant thats fine with me to.