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Taking and Giving
Teddy asked in the thread about pedophiles:
My innocence was taken so long ago that I can not remember being innocent and childish.
In my childhood, everything was seen or done with sexual overtones that took all the pleasure out of being a child.
There was never a first because it had all been done before, with NO emotion or thought of whether it was supposed to be sacred or just something to do.
ONE chance is all that is given and our one chance was taken before we could save it, to give to that special person. Did we miss out on that one special person? http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/21004#comment-5594
I have difficulty answering this, because as an adoptee, I'd like to think my First-Love came from my own mother, even though I never got to meet or know her. [She gave me life, in spite of all the stress moving and pregnancy may have brought her... so I see goodness and safety in that very first relationship. Intellectually, I try to keep this as the basis of "loving relationships", but I know experience has had a way of ruining certain things.]
Therefore, if I were to believe we are "allowed" only one special intimate relationship in our lives, I would think life would be not at all be worth living.
The question is, for me, "how many is too many to find the right fit?" [How much should a person give in a relationship, because I know for myself, boundaries are all messed-up and always changing.]
I imagine the question for most women hurt by sexual abuse is: how many men are willing to stop and listen before making sexual advances... and will listening kill any chances for future romance?
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some discovery first
I don't believe in the ONE chance being given. I've been given second chances and even third chances. I am not looking for fourth, fifth or any consecuctive chances; I really cherish the one given and for me it is no more or less innocent than the first chance given. I don't know how many is too many. I guess when chance number X shows the exact same patterns as chance number X plus 1, it wasn't really a chance to find love and intimacy in the first place.
I'm not a believer of the supernatural, so for me the chances are not given by a higher authority, but by a human, by someone willing to accept the chance I have to give too. Personally I am very careful with the chances given. I need to feel safe too before feeling the freedom to make sexual advances and really feel talking and listening before getting into action is not at all a killer. I feel much more freedom when I know where boundaries are or how boundaries have a tendency to move. I love to know what are turn-ons and like to know what are turn-offs, something I prefer to talk about first and that discovering road can be very exciting in its own right.
Talking, first
I found "talking, first" very difficult, especially since so many people are more interested in the numbers, and not the quality, (details), of experiences had in previous relationships. [ I suppose most would agree sexual abuse is not something that's easily covered in the early stages of "dating", and most men dating aren't looking to be sexual therapists with those still trying to make sense of intimate relationships -- ?]
So, as a male, how would you react if a woman made the first advances? [Or should I say, "assumed an expected sexual position"]... Are there rules to dating that change for you because of a previous inappropriate sexual exposure?
re: talking first
I don't think second chance lovers necessarily need to know all details of previous relationships or sexual encounters and being in the position of a sexual therapist would certainly be a death knell to any sexual relationship. Although I believe in "talking first", I don't believe in it having to be grave and serious all the time. What I love about the pre-sexual stage is playful conversation, in which preferences are exchanged, the likes, the never-done-but-really-would-like-to-try-out things, the only-done-once-but-really-would-like-to-do-again talk.
So far I've been pleased with women's advances as long as they were not overly aggressive. I usually feel way too awkward to make advances myself (ridiculously low self-esteem in that aspect), so I am always glad when a woman makes the first clear move, as long as it is in a non-threatening way.
Changing boundaries...
For me, there is a huge boundary around me that extends for about five feet; that's my physical boundary. My emotional boundary only allows for talk because it seems that my brain/mind is stuck in "EVERYTHING is a sin!" In my teen years I
was married off... between the ages of 25-27 I was promiscuous, and from then until now has been the "that's a sin and you are going to hell" mode. I've hated it all!
Every relationship was screwed up and I had no clue what were normal emotions so they all were wrong! I convinced myself that the one true love had passed me by as I existed in my strange world of the incest survivor. And now, I long for that companionable relationship where the man WILL stop and listen before making sexual advances. I am so strange, there
probably does not exist a man who would even want to get past the talking stage.
As for my mother and her love... well, the two-headed monster's idea of loving her tiny infant was to lay her in the corner and forget her, or talk about her right in front of her. I guess this is the reason why I say I have never been loved nor have I ever been in-love.
After being celibate for 18 years, I have NO idea of love or sex, so how would I even know that special person if he should
happen by?
The one chance at being a complete virgin for the special one; but innocence was taken, and with it all the anticipation of fulfilling love. And what is left is a totally distorted idea that it is ALL wrong.
My idea of talking first is: which way to kiss that does not make me feel like I'm being demeaned. Slow and easy goes far in a day; there is so much to be said. But then, men are from Mars and women are from Venus?
One Step Up From Bottom,
Teddy
Another question to re-frame
Teddy said:
I think there is a first for us.
I think it is just a different kind of first, a different kind of sacred.
Somewhere out there is someone who understands and loves us in spite of our damages. Maybe even because of our damages.
like Brad Davis, who played Mr. Loomis in the tv movie Sybil.
maybe the act of giving trust, of our own free will, is a kind of sacred first of the highest order.
Different kind of first/sacred
As a child we did not have the option of giving, because it was taken before we even knew how valuable it was... can there
be anything as important as our innocence?
Please explain to me your definition of a "different kind" of first, a "different kind" of sacred? I really need to have a vision
of a future that is positive. I yearn to be able to give: " maybe the act of giving trust, of our own free will, is a kind of sacred first of the highest order. "
Can that trust we give, of our own free-will, be given in segments so we can still control the boundaries and our feelings
of safety? Could this be what you mean?
I think people are afraid to leave a bad relationship to find the different kind of sacred first, because this negative action psychologically thrusts them back into early childhood. Consequently, they suffer all over again the terror of potentially being separated from a parent. Finding the courage to leave an adult relationship sends the message that you are no longer a helpless child. Finding a partner then becomes the gravy, not the meal. Once you emotionally own that you're going to make it after all, you no longer need a relationship to make you feel whole. Ergo you no longer need to act in the old self-defeating ways. But I still want a relationship...
One Step Up From Bottom,
Teddy
Words and Meaning
In terms of intimacy, everything you once knew and learned for yourself has to be re-learned through new and different experiences, but these experiences have to be controlled and made new again, so you can slowly understand how certain words reflect certain feelings and meanings.
For instance, Niels above described "first conversations":
I myself don't care so much about the "playful conversation" aspect, because it implies role-play and performance, two elements of fakeness that can easily go in the wrong direction. Instead, I prefer "safe conversations", that tell the other person what feels safe and good. For instance, if a conversation starts taking an intimate direction, I believe it's ok and smart to admit to a life of extended celibacy because it can easily explain, "I don't know what I like or don't like... right now it all feels scary and unsafe to me."
A man worth his salt, (so to speak), will want to help you uncover and rediscover all the little things that loving intimacy should bring a couple. In that sense, I believe even holding hands and a first kiss can be new and different experience, because with effective communication, you have the power to decide if it feels good and safe, or not.
That makes sense
I see the control in your version of the "conversations first." You make holding hands and the first kiss seem so much less
threatening when it has already been discussed, taking into consideration my years of celibacy and former abuse. Not looking at the whole picture (which could include the sexual intimacy somewhere down the road) but the very beginning, and planning how it can be a safe, rewarding experience; and maybe, down the road, going on from there because it was a safe and rewarding experience. Does this make sense?
As you can see, I'm taking your and Niel's opinion that there are more than one chances to find happiness in this world. I
never had let myself believe that because of my feelings of "something is wrong with me." Parents who don't know how to
love themselves model that for their children and the circle just keeps going round. To break that circle and step out as ME
is my goal. I always picked people who would betray me, just to prove I was right that there is something wrong with me. NO!
That was my mother's plan and her abuse of me... stepping back turning around walking away toward a different goal...
"I can be changed by what happens to me, I refuse to be reduced by it." M.A.
One Step Up From Bottom
Teddy
Taking Baby Steps towards a bigger picture
I think each person has a right to determine what's acceptable in a relationship, and what isn't. [After all, there are many people in this world who don't require intercourse to have a sense of satsifying intimacy with another person. A loving gesture or expression can come in many sensual forms, and as long as you are feeling safe and loved, what's wrong with a little mutual guiding exploration?] Unless you have carefully explored your own fears and anxieties, (based on your own level of comfort and sense of pleasure), how will you ever know what's possible in terms of a healthy, happy, satisfying adult relationship?
Whether you decide sex is for you or not, I believe removing the script of "I'm not worthy of a loving adult relationship" is a very good place to start. I honestly think once you decide "I am worth the effort", the rest becomes much easier to discuss with another.
Start at the beginning
We live in a world that teaches instant gratification: max out the card, take what isn't really yours to have, ME first... but when it comes to intimate relationships this just does not work. Here is where I find the religious/scared experience of the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; and the Bible definition of love: Love is always patient; love is always kind; love is never envious or arrogant with pride. Nor is it conceited.
To have the right to determine what's acceptable in a relationship, and what isn't, is for both in the relationship and I believe
exactly what the Bible is talking about. That makes a lot of sense to me: It's NOT all about me, but about US.
Kerry said:
"I honestly think once you decide "I am worth the effort", the rest becomes much easier to discuss with another." And for
people who have lived a lifetime believing the lies we told ourselves from childhood, the "I am worth the effort" is the first
step for ANYTHING else in our lives.
How did you finally decide you are worth the effort?
"I can be changed by what happens to me, I refuse to be reduced by it." M.A.
One Step Up From Bottom
Teddy
My own experience
It has taken me decades to learn one simple fact: My own happiness has to factor-in whatever relationship I decide to keep for myself. [Pleasing others, at my own expense, can no longer be the working-rule in my life....]
I believe, in that sense, all efforts on my part have to reflect my own sense of peace and happiness. [In other words, what I give, I'd like to expect in return. If not, perhaps that means I'm investing in the wrong relationship.]
Empty relationships
I wonder why I shut-down for so many years... WHY did I not ask for something; ANYTHING? I just gave and gave but accepted there was nothing for me in that relationship. This is not a pat-on-the-back; this is just the fact that I was so
non-existent that even I didn't know I had needs.
And now that I see me; that I know I have needs that are real and right, I can understand what relationship really means.
I have a right to peace and happiness that comes from the pleasing of others; not just pleasing others as my duty in life.
I've started with having a friend be just a friend and nothing more. I've learned it's ok to say no. I've learned to watch that
friend find happiness and feel genuine happiness for him. It didn't have to be me that made things right for him; he was
just my friend. I've learned to let go.
My main concern now is not latching onto someone that is just like the other dead-end relationships I've known before. I'm
making a list of opposites; opposite of what has always been the wrong choice of men. So when meeting someone for the first time, I think about all the things that made me unhappy, and the first sign of this in a new person is what tells me: this
is NOT more than just acquaintance material.
Before, I fell for anyone because I was so desperate for someone, ANYONE who would accept me and make me feel
less worthless. Does that make sense? And what I got was the same patterned betrayal (I imagined) time and time again.
I was setting myself up to fail each and every time. Just like in my childhood; it felt so natural to be betrayed. After all,
wasn't there something wrong with me? This was how I was programed to think and act. NOW, the first step... accept
ME and love ME so I can in turn love someone else.
All my own efforts to love someone must first come from the ability to discern between desperation and safe needs with
someone who is safe. And here is where the conversation proves who is safe and who is not; who can give and who only takes.
"I can be changed by what happens to me, I refuse to be reduced by it." M.A.
One Step Up From Bottom
Teddy
[slow nod]
Knowing what makes you happy is the first step to making sure whatever realtionships you allow in your life are what you want and what you need.
finally, i have a moment to
finally, i have a moment to respond...
not really what i meant. i think control robs us of a lot of living as well. how to explain this? my views on this are unconventional perhaps so hard to verbalize.
i'm going to screw this up, so forgive me if i do...
the way i see it, all relationships are a huge risk. if we are guarded and meter out our trust and minimize our risks, then we censor the potential to enjoy the relationship fully. and let's face it, all our being careful and doing what we're supposed to do and trying to make things work out - obviously didn't work. because it is based on lies/ denial to/of ourselves. it is natural that the injured animal in us proceeds with caution, and this is prudent. but at some point, we have to throw caution to the wind if we are ever going to transcend the mundane. it is not a matter of deciding to proceed or choosing one path over another. it is a matter of ceasing the deliberating and just allowing whatever is to be, to just be. it is suspending disbelief. it is a commitment to accept the moment for what it is, and to accept the person and yourself for what they / you are. it is a rejecting of all that enslaves you and keeps you grounded. it is accepting freedom. it is allowing yourself to love and be loved.
this is why people are so frightened and scared by love. there is no safety net there. it is a leap of faith. it has nothing to do with safety. that's what makes it such an incredible proposition.
for me, all my relationships of the past i never allowed myself to go to this place. limited by my own self-imposed straight jacket, out of a rejection of others and a jaded estimation of the success of anything having to do with people, i entered any relationship with reservations and mistrust. so whatever those relationships were, they weren't love, because i wasn't fully present for them. they got as crappy a deal as i did. and maybe being so in control and tight with myself and working so hard at all the wrong things contributed greatly to them not being there for me!
i finally let myself go two years ago. this was my different kind of first, my different kind of sacred. maybe this is something the rest of the planet does daily, but because it was new to me, it seems now that this kind of surrender is more precious than our virginity or our innocence, because we do it fully informed, and despite our background, STILL choose to proceed. this is truly a precious gift. the most precious gift we can give. to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. and we can explain that to our partners so its meaning is not lost. my love didn't work out and yes, it was emotionally dangerous, but i've no regrets. because i learned that i have the capacity. (and if me, the misanthrope, can do it, then we must all have the capacity) it is absolutely insane. it is the ultimate anyone can do, but for us abused people it is even more implausible and heroic.
all through the years i have thrown myself at and into relationships and have expected and received so little, settling for anything from physical attraction or friendship or even just mild interest. but throwing oneself into a relationship is actually a selfish, careful thing to do. the relationship where i allowed myself to love was there all along, i'd just not given it any thought. but now, now that i know i have this capacity i am not so oblivious, i think i am better able to notice this capacity, this endless prospect and timeless appreciation, in others. and hopefully the next time i will see the someone who recognize the meaning in two hands holding and has the bravery to jump with me from planes. and they will see me.
so it is like a regression of sorts - a throwback to when it signified something major when johnny shared his bubbles with you, vs. meeting for a drink at a crowded bar. i think we all long for those simple things. so i just live my life and don't think about pursuing a relationship, because i feel that it warps my priorities and values. instead i work on my evolution as a person. but stay open to possibilities i never would have entertained before.
i don't see the value in focusing on wanting. that would make me crazy. but if something comes along, i want to not be blind to it this time, and i want to bravely jump in.
does this make sense?
somehow, someway, we have to get beyond our fears so we can truly live. and we can hem and haw and deliberate, but the fears will never go away. and good people don't come along everyday. so sometimes, you just gotta jump. and have faith. and live a moment. and it might not work out. but at least you got to finally soar.
almost_human
IMO, giving up control isn't the same as being willing to suffer more pain. IMO, there has to be a certain amount of control... of me. Of what I need and how I can allow it into my life as opposed to controlling someone else. Just ME...and my thoughts.
"i don't see the value in focusing on wanting." I started to die when I stopped wanting; both physically and mentally. Without
a vision or plan or something that says "future" then what good is life right now? I find life very monotonous without hope.
Since I walked away from my husband, knowing there was no future with a confessed child destroyer... (more dark humor) I
have felt everything from abandonment to freedom. If I didn't remind myself that there has to be more to life, and WANT that
difference, I just could not go on. Apathy almost killed me... not wanting anything; just to lay down and die so the pain would go away was what took over my life when I did not focus on wanting SOMETHING. That's just ME, again.
I truly admire your words: "instead i work on my evolution as a person. but stay open to possibilities i never would have entertained before." Being willing, yet not obsessing. I think I used to obsess over everything; which is the old black and
white: all or nothing. In you, I read words of continuing on with yourself and yet, in the background you have left a spot
for something new and exciting; not searching and getting destroyed over and over. That's certainly something for me to
think about. Thanks.
"I can be changed by what happens to me, I refuse to be reduced by it." M.A.
One Step Up From Bottom
Teddy
[let me slip this little one in...]
Many years ago (it feels like two lifetimes ago....) a very dear friend shared with me the advice his mother gave him regarding dating and marriage.
He told me his mother never wanted him to feel like he HAD to get married. Instead, he was always encouraged to live his life according to his own design, based on his own desires. If he found during his life-travels, he met others who shared similar passions and interests, he should let them in. If they made life a richer experience, all the better. If they brought him problems he could do without, it would be best to let them go.
At first, I thought that was a very selfish way to live life: do as you find pleasing.
But then, if we were to limit our potential for greatness, what's the point in giving anything a try?
I think the key to any successful relationship is knowing you can honestly say to yourself, "I really like/admire the person who is speaking".
In this sense, I think a lot of us forget our own voices have to be included in that "personal approval".